honest to god. i have just spent 2 hours with elijah screaming, headbutting, smacking his head off everything in sight, nipping, punching, kicking and throwing himself onto the floor.....because it was bedtime.

i am getting this in varying amounts for anything up to 3 hours before naps and bed.......have evened out his routine, he isn't hungry or thirsty, definitely getting enough sleep but he seems to be in this cycle of getting absolutely hysterical before he will sleep and tbh it is physically and emotionally killing me now............

any (not cry it out) advice?

Sorry Mari, really don't know know what to advise. I would suggest just leave him to it but I suppose thats just the same as leave him to cry it out. When Ellie gets like this (due to not getting her own way) we just ignore it and try to distract her?

Sorry, I know it's really crap advice!

Sending a hug x

i know ignoring it is for the best but he is really going for it and the other day ended up with two huge lumps on his head from throwing himself into the chest of drawers....ugh..........exhausting. will this child ever sleep without an argument, 20 months is too long.

I know you don't want to let him cry it out but have you tried leaving the room for a few minutes? Jamie sometimes throws a strop when we want to put him to bed but we put him down and leave and a couple of minutes later his asleep. However, when we were at my Mum's the other day and I had to stay with him he just continued to throw a strop.

Other than that I really have no solutions. Sorry. Hope you manage to work it out. It must be exhausting for you that he still doesn't sleep

Have you tried distracting him? With Ellie we stupid things like say - hey was that a little smile I just seen when you were crying or oh picked her up and holds in front of the mirror and says look at this little girl crying isn't she funny etc and it usually stops it.

Sorry again if it sounds crap.

during the day if he is having a temper about something he is quite easily distracted (usually by something digger related!) it just seems to be such a different story with this...i think we need to wait until we move because we all sleep in the same room and there isn't much space so its easy for him to hurt himself (i have visions of leaving him and him knocking himself out etc...)

just frustrated i suppose x

Mari if he's anything like bean used to be then leaving him will no doubt result in hysterics, then he'll go calm for a bit but still upset... so you do the whole 'checking in after 10 mins' and it makes things worse?! (cue the hysterics again?)

Can only suggest the following - all just off the top of my head but hopefully will give you some food for thought if nothing else:

*No tv for at least half an hour before you start bedtime routine (that is separate from and doesn't include the bedtime books, milk, quiet time)

*No naps after a set time - try 4pm, bring it back earlier if that doesn't suit?

*Visual timetable - which either you or he can physically move when each is done (e.g. laminated pictures of toothbrush, book, milk, pj's etc. - stick up in a row, talk through them, then when each is done, put in a little basket to mark it as 'complete'... you know the thing)

*Eliminating things from his diet (moreso evening meal) just in case it's an upset tummy or wind - dairy, fruit etc.

*Nightlight / light show thingie / glowworm / glow in the dark stickers on ceiling

*A new bedtime comforter / teddy / blanket / bedcovers - to be bigged up as very lovely and special - and mentioned when the whinges start (ooo lets go see teddy / your new quilt etc.)

*change the routine - a shower instead of bath, a wash instead of shower, doing things in a different order, move his cot, have a new game to play before bed... lots of new books to read, someone else doing part of the bedtime bit, then swap back... Just mix it up.

*Music to listen to when going off. We are blessed (possibly cursed) with the old version of the bt monitor that we can plug the iPod into. Cue the Wiggles

*Teether powder / gell / calpol - could be more teeth?

*Gin. Or whiskey?


He could be scared, poorly, obstinate, a poor sleeper, missing mummy, developed a dislike for bedtime in general or just be asserting himself. Hopefully it will change soon for you - clocks go forward in a few weeks don't they (is it about 6/7 weeks or longer?!) which could poss help?!

You may have figured, I have no clue but at least I may have distracted you for a bit xxx

he surely can't be poorly for his entire life!!! (am i being dramatic?)

wellllll i do think he is asserting himself, because should he make it as far as the living room he 'magically' recovers so serious issues such as pain i can't imagine are really the case.

i don't even mind him staying up later its just today for exampe hes been up since 6 and we want a bit of bloody peace!!! or at least not to have to fight him into bed.

here are the things we have tried:

- no naps after 3.30pm
- froggy to go to bed with
- 2 nighttime books he reads before bed
- star light show
- stars nightlight (have to leave it off til hes asleep as any light at all and he finds things to play with
- set naptimes
- set routine - only changes if hes very tired when he has a shower instead of bath
- wake him up if hes asleep past 8.30am
- lots of visual cues and a (boring for mummy) quite strict routine through the day

the only thing we haven't done it the laminated cues which might be an idea - do you think he would understand at 20 months? probably on some level...

he has a very very fiery temper (like me) but generally i can deal with it in the day and even if he is headbutting things i can easily ignore it and he stops and does something else...i think when the only 'something else' to do is go to sleep though that is where the problem lies?

we also occasionally resort to drugging him just in case *something* hurts (calpol)

probably not much help but just thought i'd mention that when we refused to allow lewis no naps after 3pm he was a horror...screaming for ages etc, we gave him back his naps up until max 5pm(he never usually slept past 4 though) and he changed overnight and was happy to go to bed

Oh dear. It does sound a bit shit. It depends how complex your bedtime routine is - you only need to pick out the main bits for cue cards - with a lot of emphasis on what is coming next - I'm guessing you do it with him already a lot through the day?

My instinct is to say just chuck it all out the window then - if you're ticking all the boxes and something still isn't working, then sod it - let him eat pizza until midnight then roll into bed when he chooses I have a feeling that's the devil in me though

I defiantly know what you mean about the 'something else' - when it's bedtime you really can't threaten with time out, bribe with a biscuit etc. can you?!

Have you tried focussing on the 'tomorrow' bit? A picture or visual cue for what he is doing in the morning? E.g. he could put the bread for the ducks by the front door... have his snack ready to take to playgroup, skis ready for a day to aviemore... pfffft.... just a thought?!

It does sound like he's having you on - but months of association with bedtime being a wrestle is going to be hard for him to change his mind on - what ever you try would (I'm thinking) take a while to kick in? xx

Quote :

My instinct is to say just chuck it all out the window then - if you're
ticking all the boxes and something still isn't working, then sod it -
let him eat pizza until midnight then roll into bed when he chooses I have a feeling that's the devil in me though

haha thats the most tempting, like tonight he is still up and only being a mild pest (megabloks everywhere mainly), and i start thinking...well WHY am i making him go to bed??? then i remember its because i need time to myself, and HE needs sleep.

haha er skis not so much bread for ducks though yes we could manage that - im not sure he has a grasp of 'tomorrow' yet? probably worth a go anyway as if he doesnt he soon will. we do explain that mummy and daddy will still be here and we can play diggers tomorrow etc but the mention of anything fun sends him running for whatever it is (oh wait...yes he probably DOES understand )

thats an interesting one kenty...we were going up 8am, nap 1pm-2 or 3 then bed about 8pm which generally vaguely seems ok so long as we are happy to fight it out, i dont know whats going on cos hes been getting up earlier and to bed earlier which has thrown everything out but definitely when he was sleeping til 4 or 5 he was just not sleepy until gone 11 which was too late for me.

im sure it's learned behaviour but im at a loss as to how to un-learn it - with other discipline its short lived but he has obviously spotted that my endurance is weaker by night?

hm just a thought as things are especially bad just now.....he has suddenly started only having 1 hour instead of 2 hours nap and can't be convinced to go back to sleep.....

i wonder if actually he still needs 2 hours but its worth trying one in the morning and one in the afternoon (he did this til he was about 1 anyway)???? *grasp grasp*

Aww Mari I wish I had some advice for you but you know Milo was pretty similar, sooo... I'm no help! But, he is a FANTASTIC!!! sleeper now. We did controlled crying when he was 2 and a bit (before then it had never worked) and it only took 3 or 4 days until he worked it out, now he drags me upstairs when he's ready for bed, tucks himself up with a car encylopedia ( ) and doesn't even need/want me to read a bedtime story, lets me walk out of the room and drifts off to sleep by himself!

Don't know if it would have worked so well when he was Eli's age, as Milo's another one who gets over-the-top angry, I do think a lot of it was him being "ready" so I know that's not much help to you.. but it does mean that you may only have a few more nightmarish months, if that helps at all?? Much like Grace said, I found things like sleep separation technique, pick up put down etc just made things worse Sending hugs, earplugs and sleepy vibes your way!

Ooh, one thing, he doesn't like the dark very much, and settled much better if I left a lamp on. Don't know if that would help though.. oh, and a bedtime routine poster also helped a tiny bit..

thanks kat, i know eli and milo are really similar and in some ways things are easier in that he sort of understands what he is so enraged about (does that make sense?) and so i feel better that he isn't actually frightened or in pain or worried particularly hes just very very p*ssed off.

for a short time he would say 'nini' and pull me to the bedroom but when i stopped bf in december that stopped too....part of it might just be time but after a few especially difficult days i am exasperated (ahh but of course it will get better eventually and something else will be in its place........... )

It's worth a go - I'd say anything is. After 3 and 1/2 years broken sleep myself I can entirely empathise. It started with those uncomfy pregnant nights when expecting the boy........................and I've not chuffing slept a full night since. Now am still on boobie duties with the girl. Most permanently knackered.

I know what you mean about time to yourself, I wish I could say what has worked for us but honestly, there's not been one main thing. Bean is in the stage of dropping naps altogether at the min - am not impressed. Still trying to make sure he has a bit of downtime with a dummy and muslin and stays quiet for a bit in the afternoon - a whole day wide wake seems to make him unsettled at night (I have no idea why). He slept really, really well for a while when we moved him to a cot bed - but that only lasted a few weeks.

On the way back in the car today there way about 3/4 of an hour where both babies were asleep. I do honestly think I love them a bit more when they are like that... xx

Have you tried bringing bedtime forward? If we put Jamie down around 7 its fine but if we're delayed and its closer to 8 then his a nightmare. Perhaps his too tired

his bedtime has been anything between 11.30pm and 6.30pm : / its just out of hand im not surprised ive got a sodding ulcer.

Sorry I've got no other solutions. Hope for your sake he starts settling soon

Can I ask why u wont let him cry it out? Tbh it sounds like he has u wrapped round his little finger already. I know CC is really not nice but after a couple of nights if u stick to it the results are amazing! x

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i kinda agree with Terri. It sounds to me like he knows wxactly how to play you. Hes trying to be in control and prob knows if u kick up a fuss he' ll get attention. If it were Alfie I would put him in his cot where he's safe and leave him to it. x x

i have already said on lots of occasions that im not willing to let him cry it out, and did ask in the original post that that wasn't the advice!!! i don't need to discuss it again as it always causes an argument.

im interested on hearing other helpful ideas, thanks

How long would you let him go before you did try it? ...teaching a child to sleep is one of the most important things a parent should teach their child.. I just wonder at what point will you do what works for just about everyone that does it?

I don't mean that to sound harsh, because I know how you feel about it...its a genuine question...will you allow him to control you like this when he is 3..4..5..6+ ...when will you say enough is enough and leave him to it, or will you allow him to have bad sleep habits his whole life?

I know you dont want to leave him for unlimited time screaming but have you considered trying a crying time limit? I dont know if that makes sense. When C went into a big bed we had a very unsettled time but all out cc wasnt for me at the time as it seemed painful so i returned every five mins religiously to shush her then leave. At first it did ramp it straight back up but eventually she got the message and settled but still knew i would return regularly/ Only a thought. I have to say now shes nearly 3 if she screams at bedimte i shut the door and bog off but she knows now i wont abandon her so she does get left to it but the age i did the 5 min return at was about Elis age. And C is another one who gets in rages so it does work even with that temperament.

alright...obviously you aren't listening to what im saying so this thread is done.