sooooo the past few nights elijah has been up every hour or two (going
on about a week now actually), at first i thought well new house,
teething etc he will settle, but last night was the worst of all and i
didn't manage to get him to stay asleep in his cot until gone 6am this
morning ( )

now, i am no stranger to having a baby who doesn't like to sleep, or at
least doesn't like to sleep in his own bed, but he had his tea a bit
earlier yesterday (6pm rather than 7 or so) and because he started
crawling in the evening he probably used a lot of energy up, i didn't
get him to go to sleep til midnight (then began the trying to put him
down game)....

so i am wondering, although nearly everytime he woke up, i fed him
(desperation and worrying about him waking everyone up), he fell almost
straight back asleep without feeding much - but could he still have been
hungry for solids??? i wonder if a little bowl of plain rice + ebm
would have helped???

i know i am probably grasping at straws but we tried calpol, putting the heating on, shooooshing him, feeding him (bf),
putting him down still awake.....but all to no avail. he could have been
overtired (almost certainly by the middle of the night), but there was
something else and i can't figure it out!

Honestly..I wouldn't go down the food at night route, once you start he will get used to it and you will only end up having to wean him off that! If he needs more food then its got to be in the day - sometimes routines need to be changed slightly to fit extra feeds in.

What is his 'usual' routine throughout the day, as in when does he eat, sleep, how long etc?

usually up about 9-10am bf,

then breakfast about 11am

sometimes a little bf 12ish and a sleep of no more than an hour

lunch 1-2pm

sleep between 3-4ish for anything up to 2 hours if we are lucky

tea 6-7ish

general battles to go to bed/play/bf a lot until usually gives in about 11pm-midnight

it's an ongoing struggle that we have had since day 1 but at least there is some routine to it now

you do have a bit of weird old routine going on there Mari. I have no idea why he has started with the waking but it's probably a mixture of things inc new house and teething etc but my best guess would be the over tired thing - especially since he has been crawling around.

If it were me (you can tell me to pee off hun ) I would have a little fiddle around with his routine. He seems to have uneven gaps between feeds so firstly I would even that out. Rather than bf first thing I would start giving brekkie first (9). Then after or mid morning (10.30 - 11ish) a decent bf. Maybe a mini nap and then lunch between 12-1 with water/juice to drink. Then good nap 1.30 - 3.30 followed by a good bf and some play time. Tea between 5-6 with water/juice followed by play time. Bath between 7-8 then quiet quiet time/stories/big bf and cuddles till he is sleepy and down at the first teeny tiny sign of tiredness.

Never be fooled by a sudden burst of energy in the evenings before 'bedtime' this usually (in most cases I've come across) means they are actually tired - confusing little beggers! My two come to life around 7ish and want to be rushing around after each other but I never have a problem getting them to bed at 7.30. Must be a baby thing coz right now it's my bedtime and the last thing I feel like doing is running round like a loon

I totally agree with Lisa that solids in the night would make life harder in the long run.

Hope you figure it out soon hun.

xx

haha god debs, you must have written at least a books worth just in reply to my baby sleep woes

this morning instead of a bf first thing (which im sure he didn't need) we skipped it and went straight to brekkie - elijah didn't notice so i think we will keep going with that - it gave me chance to express too which is handy.

the other small bfs in morning and afternoon (dare i say it) are because for at least a month now i haven't been able to get him to sleep without feeding him, if i can get him to sleep at all. it's really starting to take its toll on me! i end up feeding him to sleep out of desperation, then if i move he wakes up and that's the end of naptime so i literally don't get a minute to myself unless hubby is playing with him!

i feel absolutely at the end of my tether - i don't want to use formula cos i know it constipates him (re various other posts ). maybe i won't feel so bad if i get a few hours tonight, but i spend most of the night just now sat up holding him as that's the only way i can get any sleep....

i feel like such a failure!!!

Aww hun - you have no reason to feel a failure!! that's the sleep deprivation talking! You have a gorgeous healthy little dude that is happy and thriving! You are doing nothing wrong!

As far as Eli is concerned life is dandy and lets face it hun at the end of the day that's all we can ask for but it would be nice for mummy to get a bit of rest too! You have my complete sympathies hun - you really do! Thomas was a rubbish sleeper too and I know how it can get you down and make you feel like you are going nuts at times.

All babies are different - I know coz I got chalk and cheese! but the one thing they all have in common is that they need sleep. Some like it in one huge block at night and others have shorter at night but better day naps - Eli just needs to work out which one he is!

In my limited experience hun - sleep promotes sleep!!! as in - the better they nap and are rested during the day - the better they will settle at night. I honestly reckon that a few little tweaks and adjustments here and there to your daytime routine will help no end. I wouldn't worry about his daytime naps hun. If he wants cuddling/rocking/nursing to sleep then do it for now - you can sort that out later. I would concentrate on bedtime. You might need to be quite tough on him tbh but you will get there. Pick a bedtime (whatever suits you - i would maybe start at 9pm?) and stick to it! No interaction/eye contact after that time - just gentle shushing and rocking if needs. It will take time but he will get used to it - the problem you will have at this stage is he is getting clever - he knows how to work you now so don't be fooled .

You have probably seen posts from me about what a great nightime sleeper Hannah is blah blah blah but what you wont read is that she is a crappy daytime sleeper. She has two naps in the day - one at 9.30am when she HAS to be in my arms and cuddled the whole time (usually 1/2 hour) - not easy with a toddler around believe me! The other is a longer one which she now has in her cot (took some doing mind you) but she has to be rocked in my arms and put down asleep - she will not self sooth during the day. Night time is a different matter - she is great so that makes me feel better about the crappy daytime. No matter what you read on here or elsewhere hun - no baby is perfect! you are doing a great job - stop beating yourself up about it - you will get there!

((((((hugs))))))

xx

thanks debs, it's really strangely heartwarming to hear other people having trouble too! i started at 9 last night and after an hour and a half of sleep/screaming/kicking and wanting to sit up/sleep/screaming etc i gave him to hubby and came on here for a break - it then went on til about 12.30 and then every 1.5 hours he was screaming again (not just grumbling but full on red face tears screaming). i can't find anything wrong with him and as soon as he is back on a boob he is straight back to sleep so i don't think its pain...

my mum has taken him out in the pram just now to try and give me a break - im not sure where the end of my tether is but i think i am approaching it! i just wanted to cry when he woke up at 9am, and he has been overtired since and fallen asleep 3 times on me but screamed whenever i have tried to put him down (nearly 2 hours of trying)

oooh that sounds a bit hysterical and i think you're right, sleep deprivation can make things seem much worse than if i had had a few more hours!

Arwyn has been much better since we got a routine and made her go to bed, now she sleeps much better. I bought a book called The No Cry Sleep Solution and it's very interesting

the baby whisperer sleep tips book was really good for (kind of) sorting his naps - i think the problem is me, i dont think i am built to be consistent. i am going to follow deb's idea for a week and see how it goes, hopefully this is just a phase

good luck!! i've still not got Arwyn to go down for naps yet but at least i'm getting her to sleep without needing the boob! that's cos we brought back the magic dummy though.
definitely give a routine a bash!!

yeah i thought about the magic dummy again last night - it might be worth a shot!

I agree with Debs babies do have a random burst of energy when they are tired. Drew goes nuts kicking his legs and cooing away in his crib hubby looked it up and said it was true.

We've had a few struggles with Drew but (tell me to naff off if you want) but this is his routine:-

6/7ish am breakfast (usually banana porridge or Weetabix) with milk
7:45 - 8:45 nap
8:45 - 9am mummy and Drew play time in mummy and daddy's bed usually playing peek a boo
9am come downstairs play, snack (about 10ish), juice and more play
12:30pm Lunch time
1-3 nap
3-6 play time, dinner, juice, bath, cuddles
6-9 in bed asleep
9-11 milk, fruit puree or porridge, cuddles and mummy & daddy baby bonding time
11-3am sleeping in crib
3/4am ish milk
3-6/7 ish sleeping in crib

This is only an average day, sometimes he wakes up at 10pm but he always goes down again at 11pm. It might seem like he is eating alot but this is his routine, when he was born we had to wake him up every 3 hours for a feed as he was born early and had jaundice and some other things. He would never wake up and cry for food when he was teeny tiny.

At this age I had MJ sleeping through the night we had tried CC and sometimes when he wakes up at 9pm he can be left as he cries then stops, listens, cries, stops, listens then goes back to sleep all usually within about 5 minutes.

We have been advised that we can now drop the 3am feed and swap it for water but this just annoys him and he screams louder and louder and he does get really angry that he's getting scammed out of his milk so we're going to start watering down his milk until it is water (on the advise of the HV) starting with 6oz water and 5 scoops of milk xxxxxxxx

that's really helpful, thanks elijah was similar as he was jaundiced and a bit undercooked for the first 8 weeks, so i had to wake him up to feed him as he was so sleepy - i think that's where my fear of him not getting enough comes from - i wonder if i have caused this weird sleep anxiety actually! he used to get low blood sugar and jittery/raspy and stuff when he was tiny and it was really scary.

he has never ever gone to bed early though - his 'natural' sleep time was from 4am onwards (once he was better) and it has taken this long to get it to 11/12 one night feed i can deal with fine, i barely wake up and stick him on a boob, but 10 is another matter!

it's interesting that drew is only a few weeks older than eli and is having more than 3 meals a day, i still wonder if he would benefit from that but will try and work on the routine, if that still doesn't work i might try squishing a snack in somewhere. things are on track so far today (breath isn't quite held yet )

Poor you. I agree with everyone else I think you need to tweak your routine a bit. I think feeding earlier in the day will help and get all his daily requirements in before bed. I would also have a set bedtime ie 8pm but to do this you are going to have to wKe him earlier in the morning say 8am. It will be hard but worth it. I think the feeding in the night is a habit and he feels he cant get to sleep without a bf. I think you will have to be strong and ofer a dummy or drink of water instead. Does he have a comforter? This is Lewis routine
7am/7.15am up and dressed
7.45am milk feed and breakfast
9.45am nap for 1/2nd
11.45am lunch and water
1.45ish nap for an hour if I'm lucky
2.30pm bottle
4.45ish tea and water
6.15pm bath
6.30/45pm milk then bed.

Usually he goes down ok but if he cries or wakes crying I will go in pick him up see if he needs a burp then put him back down. If I know he's fine I will leave him then and he usually settles. He sucks his thumb and has a comforter. He used to be a pain at night but is getting better. I still give him a feed at 10.30pm but we are cutting this down. X

I agree with the others hun. Maybe adjusting the routine slightly may help.

Here is Aimee's routine when she was the age E is now:-

7am - wake up/breakfast (porridge)
7.30am - bottle
9.30am - snack
9.45 to 11am - nap time
12 pm - lunch
12.30 - bottle
1.30pm to 3pm - nap time
4.30pm - dinner
6pm - bath time
6pm to 7pm - wind down time and toys away
7pm - bed time

I hope you find what suits you both soon and im sure he will start going down earlier before you know it.

x

mari I know you said that you didn't think it was this but are you sure he doesn't have reflux? did you ever go back to the doctors and see about them giving you something other than gaviscon for it... because it seems like he is happy when he is feeding but not happy after and will only sleep with you holding him.. which could all be refluxy things?

and now that he is eating solids you would probably be able to introduce some formula (comfort) and if he gets constipated you can help it with fruit?

I also think that babies need routine. they need to know what they are meant to do and when. Tyler has always gone to bed at 7 from day 1 and he is always getting tired by 6.30 and ready for bed. he just knows thats his bed time.
We moved his bath from the morning to 6 very early on and although he loooves the bath and its play time for him he knows that after bath comes bed. He was never so great in the day time until we tweaked his routine and got everything just right.

Once he was on 3 meals a day his sleeps went from 20 minute cat naps to 45 mins then up to 1.5hour naps.

I also agree with Debs that sleep promotes sleep.. the more sleep eli gets the more he will want/need and the easier it will be for him to get to sleep.
If you have to hold him for his day time naps just to make sure he gets enough of a nap (Id say at least 45 mins but preferably more) then Im sure in a day or two he will be wanting more and more sleep and you will find it a lot easier to get him down. If he is waking up at 9 then his night bed time should be 9 so would try and stick to that if poss
x

Sorry I didn't reply before now - but I can see some of the other fabby ladies have replied with idea of how to tweak your routine which is what I was going to suggest too!

I agree with whats been said too - sleep promotes sleep - Izzy was having 3 naps a day at that age (until she was 1 in fact, and still has 2 a day now)

Of course you know Im going to say it - have you tried white noise?! I suggested it to natkat the other day as Milo wasn't dropping off very well and she said she had definitely
seen an improvement. I think maybe if you gave it a go and he started to get longer periods of sleep he would start to self improve too - as right now he seems in a viscous circle where he cant seem to learn to settle.

Hope you get a break soon!

thanks ladies

we have never tried white noise - it's about the only thing we haven't tried yet maybe i will look into one of those groovy machines

we got him up at 8 for a month and it was a disaster so i accept now that his natural time is a bit later, that's ok for now though

eli naps quite well so long as he is held, so maybe it's time to stop pushing to try and get him down and just accept it for now like you ladies say.

i do keep thinking of reflux, we got gaviscon before and it helped on and off (i think!), we still have heaps so maybe i will dig it out, for now the formula is a no-go, everything seems to constipate him and we have just finished a poo-free week where elijah was very sad and sore even with weetabix and lots of fresh fruit/orange juice in water, so i am holding off on that for as long as possible.

i think i will write down a version of deb's plan (most of her other ones have worked for me, baby whispered version 2??? haha), find the gaviscon, and go back to having a rolled up towel under elijah's sheet around his head - i think that might help cosy him...thanks again

Yes Drew was a bit undercooked too, bless him. Drew eats 3 meals a day and 2 snacks (1 snack at 10am the other at 10pm) Drew was weaned at 3 months old on the advice of the Dr. He was on just pure baby rice for 2 weeks then simple pureed veg (like a carrot) for 2 weeks then introduced to fruit so I think that is why he is advanced for his eating.

He eats what we eat just chopped up (he has an Organix jar or a Hipp jar if we're eating something that is unsuitable for him).

When he was born his digestive system was still immature and the Dr said he should have been put on the prescription milk at the hospital not left to go home when he obviously was poorly and we were the ones that had to deal with a poorly baby and all that could've been avoided if the hospital had done their jobs. Andrew is still on prescription milk although he is ok with cheese (only tiny bits, maybe a 2 - 4 inch sized piece) but we tried him on full fat cows milk the other day and his bum went sore, he was crying really painful angry cries so it is back onto the prescription milk :0(

I hope we get our wee bundles of blue sleeping through soon xxxxxxx

awwww elijah had lots of sore tummies, but is bf so generally was ok, i'm still suspicious that cows milk gives him a sore tummy so try and keep it in small quantities - they are nearly big boys now though i can't believe he was a squishy little shrimp such a short time ago

maybe he has a lactose intolerance or struggle to digest it.. did you ever try colief? that breaks down the lactose so stops them getting constipated (this is what Tyler had)

its horible when they're constipated isn't it have you tried giving him dried fruit? you can cook it and then puree it... and brown sugar is meant to help too in a bit of water x

oooh havent done brown sugar - we have done apricots etc everything except prunes another very very long night again, might cut the dairy right down again and carry on with the new routine who knows really! hes def a lot better toiletwise since i went back to ebm from hipp organic

I spoke to hv about Lewis getting constipated and she told me to see doc for some lactulose which will help x

Aww mari, first off huge hugs, I know how hard it is, I had a baby who wouldn't nap unless on me (like you, if i moved, he woke up, end of nap) would fall asleep on me, wake up the second his back touched his mattress..woke up all through the night,,i still don't know how I survived! But I remember how horrible it was, and I think you're a star!

Like, Eli, Milo was a late riser in the morning (like me ) so i had to keep waking him up earlier and earlier, and gradually got his bedtime back from midnight to 8pm. He still falls asleep with me standing up and rocking him asleep (SO much fun with my huge bump!) but as the lovely Lisa said, white noise has really helped. He'll fall asleep on me, then I'll slide him into his bed with no protest. (most of the time, haha) He's only been able to do this for a few weeks, but god it helps me feel human! I really hope Eli lets you have a break, I know how exhausting it is and wish i could help you out

If it helps, here's the link I use to get Milo to sleep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5dRLPieKoE&feature=autoplay&list=QL&index=1&playnext=5

I don't have a working cd player, so i just put it on my pc on repeat. (It may be good for babies, but it drives me up the wall!!)

Good luck!

Im trying to remember the things that helped Tyler go... I actually wouldn't have thought that weetabix would help him go... I know it's fibre and ppl say that keeps you regular whatever but it won't make a constipated baby go to the toilet so would maybe cut down on the weetabix.

also bread bungs tyler up... even now if he has too much he gets constipated.

erm... we got some prunes and raisins, boiled them up so they were nice and soft and then added some pear and then pureed and froze that and would normally add one cubes worth of it to other sweet foods as pudding or just use it whenever to help tyler go. I think we added it to his breakfast and we've only recently started giving him banana's again as they were a real pooh stopper

also watch out for too much iron as that can constipate.

you may find that all these little problems are related and once you crack what it is you may get some decent sleep and get to feel human again

I think its worth pushing your HV or doctor to do some checks though
x